"But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction."
2 Peter 2:1
The ultimate sign of any false teacher is the denial of Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour. This is the capstone of heretical wickedness which God, according to this verse, will not tolerate for long.
Yet as I was reading this verse a certain portion caught my attention:
..."even denying the Lord who bought them"...
What does this mean to you? Does it not imply that these same false teachers were actually saved as they had been bought by the Lord? I know of only one way in which the Lord Jesus Christ has bought people, and that is through His shed blood as a ransom for our sins.
The following verse states that the way of truth will be blasphemed because many have followed their destructive ways. Is this not the case today? Yet I have heard repeatedly that these ones are the false sheep or goats and not actually true converts. They have made a profession but their faith was not genuine.
Now I am not denying the fact that their are doubtless multitudes who have been deceived into thinking they have eternal life simply because of some action on their part. However, this verse is dealing not with the followers but with the teachers.
So my dear reader; what does it mean to be bought by the Lord? Is it possible that a true child of God could teach damnable heresy even to the point of denying Christ?
30 comments:
Excellent question Jim!
From this text it seems likely to me that the heretics are redeemed but I’m certain there’s a lengthy explanation of the problems with this translation forthcoming. ;-)
No!
Jazzy, welcome back!
Would you care to elaborate on that answer?
KC,
I do not think any believer should be afraid of the truth whatever that may be. I simply ask this question because the wording of this verse seems to strongly imply my hypothesis.
There is a fine line here and for the clear skeptic teaching heresy without compunction, he is lost just as those who deserted Jesus after He started speaking about HIs flesh and blood.
Now clearly men like John Mark, who may go through tests and confusion may err and perhaps that is why Paul was so bold as Jazzy might be toward the John Marks(I am one of them) that are restored or who may die in their state but still be saved. We must consider this. Sometimes God may bring death to the John Mark to get another John Marks attention. Who can know the mind of God, but those who left Jesus when he spoke of His flesh and blood were just following him from a distance trying Him, but not really believing. This is where I strongly disagree with the GES camp. They consider these people to have some kind of sporadic faith, but the scripture clearly testifies that they had no faith.
Grace upon grace,
Brian
I agree Jim.
You may be interested to know that both John Piper and John MacArthur agree that these false teachers are redeemed though it seems they hold differing positions on what it means to be redeemed. Piper contends that the false teachers are believers whose denial was in deed and not word. MacArthur agrees with Brian and attributes their being “bought” as a reference to universal atonement. I have to say his position is more tenable to me than Piper’s though it would take more scripture than this verse for me to fully accept any position.
I really look forward to continued discussion on this.
Jim,
I think it is clear from the verses following v. 1 that these false teachers are headed for hell. The parallel passage of Jude 1:4 indicates the same eternal destination.
That is certainly interesting about Piper and MacArthur. K.C., do they have commentaries?
Hey KC. Thanks for the info on MacArthur. As usual, I am more often agreeable towards MacArthur than I am Piper, but as we have often found our agreement in this and not always on every point...in the end we must all look to scriptures witness and Christ alone in all things.
Jim I hope you don’t mind if I post a link.
Wayne, here is one of my new favorite sites. ;-)
http://www.preceptaustin.org/2_peter_21-11.htm#2:1
See part 2 of MacArthur for his position. BTW Piper is in line with Calvin.
Brian you’re welcome. I hope the link above proves useful. I am always curious of, and often surprised by, the various positions taken on certain passages.
Yeah...surprise surprise. I think you and Jazzy know much more about Calvin than I do. I never read him but I do love to read Spurgeon and my Bible:-)
...and I am often blessed by many of MacARthurs messages and the heart he has for God....still as far as presenting the gospel messege. Lou hits it dead on as does Lutzer. I like to take note of the teachers who handle the gospel messege faithfully.
Grace upon grace,
Brian
Jazzy,
I realize that the following verses seem to descibe a picture of those false teachers suffering great punishment.
But please answer me how we deal with the verse at hand? What does it mean to be bought by the the Lord?
Also, consider the warning regarding, "let there not be many teachers among you knowing that they shall incur stricter judgment". What kind of judgment will teachers of the Word receive?
KC, links are most welcome here but I really want to stay away from what any Bible theologian or pastor has to say.
Let us all seek to answer the tough questions from the pages of scripture alone and not consult the quick answer book of our favorite commentary.
Can anyone prove that being bought by the Lord is not implying a redemption through His blood?
"Can anyone prove that being bought by the Lord is not implying a redemption through His blood?"
Good question Jim. Perhaps God has left this enigmatic passage open for that very reason. When Jesus spoke to his disciples he said "One of you will betray me." but never told them, yet he also told them that they were all clean save one and Peter and Judas came so very close to one another in their treachery, but Peter was of the redeemed and Judas simply continued to harbor his scepticism of Jesus being God the Son and embraced the sorrow of the world and Jesus said of him that it would have been better had he not been born.
Grace upon grace,
Brian
Jim,
Does it not imply that these same false teachers were actually saved as they had been bought by the Lord?
and
What does it mean to be bought by the the Lord?
and
Can anyone prove that being bought by the Lord is not implying a redemption through His blood?
If it is implying a redemption through his blood, then it is implying a universal salvation through a universal atonement, unless you believe in a limited atonement. Therefore, the two choices for this passage are:
1. limited atonement and the false teachers are saved.
or
2. universal atonement and everyone is saved.
While I do believe in a limited atonement, I do not believe these falst teachers are saved. It is a very difficult passage and one that requires looking to clearer passages for the answer IMO.
K.C., thanks for the link.....
Brian,
I honestly don't think that is a fair comparison. If the Bible states that our yes be yes and our no be no then it seems only logical that God will not leave us hanging by inserting passages which are purposely ambiguous.
Jazzy, I really appreciate your desire to try and honestly answer the question. By I fear you have been handicapped by the infusion of your presuppositions.
When coming to the scriptures we must be willing to lay aside what we think we already know and simply ask, "What sayeth the scripture?"
I do not believe that accepting these false teachers as believers implies UA in any way.
In fact, I think LA would make a stronger case that these in fact were believers. While I understand it is uncomfortable to question, surely the simplicity of the language makes the answer accessible?
Again is there any other way in which the Lord buys his people?
Jim? Then why did Jesus at time to where they would ask..."Lord is it I?"
Or why does Jesus speak in hyperbole telling him that he can have no part with him unless he is washed by him?
Grace upon grace,
Brian
"Bought" is obvious language for being in the church.
Although a different Greek word is used, lookie here:
Acts 20:28
28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.
Calvinism's Perseverance of the Saints is un-falsifyable. Why? Every time a scripture is brought up that is in direct variance with their doctrine they impose ad-hoc secondary assumptions to the text (which do not reside there) in order to explain them away.
Antonio
Brian, the novice in the faith doubts many things. But this one thing is for sure; in Him are the promises yes and amen!
Knowing Christ is the know His character!
Jesus spoke many things in parables and metaphors in order to hide the truth from those who were not seeking the truth. But to his friends He has made all things known.
Blessings!
Antonio, it does seem that the word "bought" is most troublesome in refuting the status of the subject here.
Was Peter a novice in the book of Galations and how the apostle Paul uses such strong language?
You do seem to admit that this language is used to bring about a deeper trust and to eliminate the skeptic who were not willing to seek the truth. Sometimes I often think we are saying similar things but using differant words.
Grace upon grace,
Hey Jim,
Check out 1 Timothy 4:10 and tell me what you think of how Paul communicates there. I dont understand how I failed to communicate what I was saying, but God is not being ambiguous, just opening up truth that our minds have trouble understanding often.
Grace upon grace,
Brian
Hi Jim,
It seems like there are two options:
1. He bought everyone. Some will teach falsities and deny Him. (Does saying that He bought them necessitate that they have ever trusted Him as a believer? I am not sure. They may or may not have.)
2. Those He bought are a limited number - who will be believers, and some of those "elect" will even deny Him and teach falsities about Him.
I don't see how we can escape that it has to be one or the other.
Great post and discussion.
Brian, interesting verse. It does make a good point though.
Rose, it does seem that the word "bought" is key to a proper understanding here.
Can you imagine a slave denying that his master bought him and then speaking lies and falsehoods. That in no way annuls the master-slave relationship.
God bless,
Jim
Jim,
It seems like it means something having to do with Acts 20:28 that Antonio mentions. Then again, I think of the story that Jesus told of the man buying a whole field (Matthew 13:44) so that he could have the treasure in it - I kinda think of the death of Christ that way. He died for all - bought all - so that He could have what He wants - a people out of those - who actually want Him and show it by respondng to Him - we are the treasure.
Peter also talked earlier in his writing about how we are redeemed (or bought) with Christ's blood:
1 Peter 1:18Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot...
SO I still think that it is not clear whether the person referred to is a saint or not. I tend to think they are a saint and not just an ordinary teacher of a false religion.
Thanks for letting me participate.
Rose makes some good points and they do hold the Calvinists feet to the fire to remain an inconsistent Calvinist to truly be a consistent one.
Rose,
That is an interesting argument although I would need quite a bit of convincing to agree completely.
Brian,
How so do you believe the Calvinist position is inconsistent?
It is perfectly consistent as long as you recognize its inconsistencies:-)
For instance...I believe in a limited unlimited atonement. We could go on and on and on, but that is just one example. By the way...Sproul has recently written a book on the dilemas hasnt he? That would be an interesting read.
Grace upon grace,
Brian
BTW...they got to you Jim. Just when you thought you were out of debating, they sucked you back in.
Little joke...not an emotional ploy. Take care brother. I am going to bed:-)
Grace upon grace,
Brian
Brian, you do have a sense of humour bro!
I am willing to accept the truth even though it be hard to swallow.
God bless,
Jim
God bless you too brother and grace upon grace to you:-)
Also...Peter seems to communicate in the same way Paul does in Timothy and it would appear in keeping in context of this "bought" passage. Looke at verses 9 and 10 of 2 Peter:
"Then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment, especially those who follow the polluting deisires of the flesh and despise authority."
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